Part II... "The Pitch"

Here's the basis of our "movie pitch" (i.e. background, scenario, setting, etc.) Since we started an e-mail thread and kept sending our ideas building on the previous person's e-mail, I figured it'd work best to just put everyone's ideas right here together:

Keene's version presented a dark, empty and harsh world during the time of witch-burning. There was also a clash between christian and pagan beliefs and a mix of irrational gender associations. I think his version of 'Hansel and Gretel' would be in the same setting, but just next to woods... obviously.
He also played to the psychological coherence of the story with complex characters, etc. In the case of this story I believe he would portray the era in a time of severe famine since fairy tales tend to adhere to that sort of genre of wish-fulfillment. Child anxiety of abandonment and starvation, therefore leading to thoughts of cannibalism, would certainly come into play. The reading in Tatar mentions "unrestrained giving in to gluttony," "cannibalistic inclinations," and "oral greediness," which could all play a part in Keene's dark world deeply rooted in child anxiety, fear and famine. The setting should be simple in itself (rural, next to the forsaken woods, etc.) while supplying a platform for the development of the complex characters of Hansel and Gretel.

I also picture Keene placing Hansel and Gretel in their early teenage years right when they are starting to explore themselves. This way she could twist it into some sort of awkward incest non sense in the woods, perhaps touching on cannibalism and gender inequalities. So possibly the children go into the woods twice, once to explore and once to be caught.

Keene's mellow demure also makes me question if the witch would die by being shoved into the stove or if would happen more calmly. Possibly the children could trick her into poisoning herself while she is making the stew to cook them in.

I assume Keene would have the step mother run the children into the woods by telling them their father no longer loved them. Also, if the town was in some sort of depression I feel the witch's house in the wood would be very lavish compared to their home they just left.

And if this is supposed to a depiction of the real life events that result in the tale of Hansel and Gretel, like with Keene's Juniper Tree, I think the ending needs to be drastically different than the conventional story that we all know. I think Hansel and Gretel should not cleverly escape the witch and end up being eaten. Perhaps one sibling could survive?
Also, I was thinking that perhaps the way that Hansel and Gretel find their way home the first time would be different. Maybe instead of using pebbles they are able to use the stars to guide them. The second night when they try to use the stars it is cloudy or something so that do not have anything to guide them. The reading suggested that the characters show wisdom in what they do the first time , but the second time they foolishly use bread instead of trying to remember landmarks. Perhaps in Keene's version of Hansel and Gretel the circumstances for their inability to show wisdom will be out of their control (i.e.. clouds blocking the stars)

Also, Keene would probably introduce a class or cultural struggle between the characters. The father and mother could make the children work for a wealthy widow (possible witch-figure) in order to make money for the family to live on. But since they despise the horrible widow, they run away. To put a "Keene twist" on denouement the mother could have died from starvation by the time they reach home, but the children have enough money to survive on meager funds.


(The "I" should be taken collectively, as it represents the views of the group.)

Hansel and Gretel- Part 1

There once was a family in an unidentified place during an unidentified time. The family consisted of a father, a stepmother, and two children. The boy was named Hansel and the girl was Gretel. The family lived in a small cabin in the middle of Nowhere, a town which had been experiencing a horrible famine. One night at dinner the stepmother was so hungry that she grabbed the last piece of bread from Hansel’s hand and scolded him for being so greedy. Disgusted at the stepmother’s harshness towards his son, the father struck the stepmother. Later that night the stepmother and the father were discussing how to respond to the fact that they could clearly not provide for themselves or their children. The stepmother suggested that she take Hansel and Gretel into the forest the next morning in order to gather berries...

Assignment 2- 20.Jan 2009

Hi Alex, Jasmine, Allison, Tim and Alexandria,

Below is a copy of the Assignment that was discussed in class today.


The first thing about this assignment that differentiates it from last week's, is the fact that it is going to be TEAMWORK!

Given that you have watched ,,The Juniper Tree'' and attended today's discussion of what this movie portrays, try to, as a group, come up with what Keene's version of ,,Hansel and Gretel", would be. In what sort of a world could this story have been written?

We could assume that the kids are 11 and 13 and the witch is ,,a lone woman'' who lives in a hut in the forest.

Looking forward to all your version of ,,Hansel and Gretel"!

Ann

Posts in time!

Great to see that almost all of you have posted. There's lots of interesting ideas here.

Essay Response

While both essays are well written, one stood out to me when thinking about which helped me to see fairytales as more then just children's entertainment. While Darnton's essay is very well written and is supported by many outside sources it read like a research paper and missed the personal aspect, I was hoping for. While Darton did show me how fairtales are more then simple children's reading, I feel Bettelheim presented his ideas in a better fashion. Bettelheim explained in depth how fairytales were a great way to express culture and heritage and directly states how children's literature falls short. Bettelheim's arguments I felt were well rounded. Although he did not separate fairytales from children he showed how fairtales help solve inner problems and life predicaments, which are bold statements. With so many life lessons and underlying adult nature I believe Bettelheim did a good job of proving that fairytales are more then just light bed time reading. 

Which one pick one

I found the Darton essay more helpful. He completely eliminates the notion that they were made for children. The introduction that includes the grandmother fairy tale demonstrates the fairy tales were not for children with its subject matter. He points out that many of the authentic versions of the common fairy tales included raw brutality that was not masked making them very adult and inappropriate by Bettelheim's standards. The morals that Bettelheim suggests helps develop the mature child are transferred to adults. Adult women learn that marriage is not grand or that all men are not gentlemen. I also like that he makes fairy tales an adult tradition. He also mentions that fairy tales are historical documents routed in oral storytelling. Usually we image telling fairy tales to children at bedtime but Darton invites us to think of adults telling fairy tales to adults when he speaks of the oral origins of fairy tales. He suggests that the were told to other adults, who were sitting around the campfire after work. He suggests that they are the products of the culture and modified for the audience's benefit.

Fairy Tale Lessons

This question is indeed a difficult one to deal with, because it can be interpreted in different ways. Darton's essay is interesting, because it enables readers to consider things about fairy tales that go beyond the simple story. His essay is well written, and is enhanced by numerous sources that he deals with. He focuses mainly on the historical development of fairy tales, which may be well and good for anthropologists, psychoanalysts, and general trivia enthusiasts, but at the end of the day what child reading these stories would really care about such matters. Remember, children are the target audience for fairy tales. In my opinion, this question is not asking how what adults can get out of studying fairy tales, but what can children take from them.
Bettelheim deals directly with the issue of viewing fairy tales as more than simply an entertainment source for children. He argues that the fairy tale enables readers to learn appropriate moral behaviors. The most striking point Bettelheim makes is his assertion that modern day stories for children tend to shy away from altercations and are "shallow," yet fairy tales show that struggles in life are unavoidable and that they must be dealt with. So, for Bettelheim, the fairy tale is a way for children to learn important life lessons. Although his argument is the most applicable, his essay would have been enhanced even more by bringing in more sources to back up his viewpoints. So for me, Bettleheim's argument is the most applicable for the question, and was the most influential in helping me understand how fairy tales are more than just entertainment for children.

The Fairy Tale: More Than Just Child's Play

While Darnton discusses the similarities and dissimilarities between folk tales of different cultures, Bettelheim directly visits the role of the fairy tale as a moral instructor that appeals to the developing unconscious of youth. He argues that while empty, modern children’s literature attempts to entertain, the traditional fairy tale enriches, stimulates and encourages the imagination. Only through developing the unconscious can a child truly develop a conscious set of morals. In providing a child with a full store of moral training through the concealed ethical principles of folk tales, he is equipped to deal with life’s difficulties in an unwavering, honorable fashion. Fairy tales set the unconscious free, permitting the imagination to instruct as it may through the moral codes established at the basis of their lessons. For these reasons, fairy tales are much more than children’s entertainment. They are the teachers that create the foundation for every child’s moral character.

Resonse to Bettelheim and Darnton Question

At first, my response to this question seemed obvious. But then, after having looked over the texts and the question a little more, I realized that one can interpret the question in two different ways.

My first interpretation of the question was that it was asking which of the two texts is more productive in helping one think about fairy tales as more than children’s entertainment, in terms of how children, specifically, learn and benefit from them. My obvious response to this interpretation of the question is that Bettelheim’s “The Struggle for Meaning” helped me to think of fairy tales, as not only a means of entertaining children, but also as a means of teaching them. Bettelheim discusses how a child can find meaning in life through fairy tales. For instance, fairy tales deal with universal human problems and the ethically appropriate solutions. Although fairy tales do not reflect modern mass society, the values and morals discussed in fairy tales do, for the most part, remain unchanged today.

Another interpretation of the question was that it was asking which of the two texts is more productive in helping one think about fairy tales as more than children’s entertainment, in terms of thinking past the most common application of fairy tales today –children’s stories, and looking at them as historical pieces which represent the culture during which they were created. My response to this interpretation would be that Darnton’s text, “Peasants Tell Tales: The Meaning of Mother Goose”. Darnton discusses original recordings of French fairy tales and how inappropriate and disgusting they were. He discusses and criticizes Bettelheim’s, as well as Fromm’s, interpretation of certain fairy tales. He also discusses how fairy tales were originally passed on orally, and how amazing it is that this technique was surprisingly pretty accurate.

Assignment 1- 13.Jan 2009

Hi Alex, Jasmine, Allison, Alexandria and Tim,


Below you will find the question to which all of you must post one response by Tuesday Midnight.

On Wednesday, there will be four posts to read, since you have four group mates. Read through their responses and comment on at least two of them. You could agree, disagree, pose a related question and try to build on what the other person has said.

By Wednesday Midnight, you will have to have posted the comments, so that I can look through what you have written, and forward interesting posts/comments to Prof. Figal.

THE QUESTION FOR 13.JANUARY 2009:

Which of the following two essays do you find more productive in helping you to think about fairy tales as more than children's entertainment? Why?


Darnton, Robert. “Peasants Tell Tales: The Meaning of Mother Goose,” in Tatar, The Classic Fairy Tales
or
Bettelheim, Bruno. “The Struggle for Meaning,” in Tatar, The Classic Fairy Tales


Looking forward to your responses!


Ann

My name is Tim Collazzi and I am a senior Political Science and European History major. I am taking this class because it sounded like it was going to be a lot of fun.

My name is Allison (Allie) Baschnagel. I am a senior Mechanical Engineering and German double major. I am taking this course to complete my German major.

I'm Alex Howard and I'm a Junior French and European Studies major. I think this course just sounds awesome. How can you beat a class devoted to fairy tales? Plus, I was borderline obsessed with Beauty and the Beast growing up. So, learning about it and other fairy tales sounds interesting to me (and this course counts towards my EUS major).

This is a random youtube clip.